Timing issue ( maybe???) - Page 2 - Polaris ATV Forum
ATV Repair and Maintenance Having problems? Doing a rebuild? All Repair/Maintenance Discussions here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
ATV Enthusiast
 
Jbeneicke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 30
Brand New wire and cap. Previously ran with both on. Ngk bkre5eya
Jbeneicke is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 02:44 PM
Polaris ATV Legend
 
latebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbeneicke View Post
Brand New wire and cap. Previously ran with both on. Ngk bkre5eya
Sorry - just covering all the bases

I presumed it was a new wire as the wire is part of the coil and you said you put a new coil on

Now this might sound silly, but it is not a new plug - you said it ran previously with both on - try a new plug

A plug can be fouled in less than 5 minutes of running

2006 Trailboss 330
2002 Sportsman 90
2005 TRX400EX (FOR SALE)
2003 LT-Z400 (needs engine work & is for sale)
2004 CRF250X
1971 Triumph 650 Bonneville (has 5 original miles)
1972 Triumph 650 Bonneville (undergoing restoration)
1979 Honda CBX (6 cylinder)
1970 Kawasaki G3SS 90cc Bushmaster
1976 Suzuki RE5 Rotary (not running & FOR SALE)
1981 Kawasaki KZ305-A
1981 Suzuki GS450T (undergoing repair & will be for sale when done)
1982 Kawasaki KZ750-H (FOR SALE)
1989 Honda VT1100C
2007 Vectrix VCTX Electric Scooter
1965 Montgomery Ward 3 1/2 HP Tecumseh Mini Bike
1970 Triumph T25 250cc Trailblazer
1968 Triumph 250cc Flat Tracker

Shop Owner and Mechanic with over 50 years experience
latebird is offline  
post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 03:31 AM Thread Starter
ATV Enthusiast
 
Jbeneicke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 30
I did try a new plug, no change. I also tried the timing lite. It is lighting up so the coil is discharging somewhere. I do have a couple of new observations though. The view I have of the timing marks us not as direct as I see in pictures. In the pictures I see the entire rim of the flywheel is visible through the siteing port where the T is stamped. On mine you have to look at a pretty shallow angle to see it, maybe like 20-30 degrees above level. It is only slightly visible at that angle. With that said at slow cranking speeds it is hard to tell if it is timed right. The other is with a light bulb style spark tester it does not change anything which would seem to indicate it is not a case where it is arcing to the well the plug sits in as I did not see any arcing yesterday. On the 500 the plug sits in the bottom of a 5" well inside the head.

I think I am going to try re-installing the old coil and plug wire tonight to see it that changes anything. I am starting to think this is a case of no spark rather than timing. It seems with ether sprayed in the engine a spark at any time of the four cycles would produce a flame.
Jbeneicke is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 04:46 AM
Moderator
 
polman500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SE Kentucky
Posts: 7,570
Op, forget about a timing light and spark tester. If you have spark when holding the plug against the engine while cranking that's enough!
LEAVE THE PLUG OUT!
YOU MUST TURN THE ENGINE SLOWLY AND ACCURATELY SO IT HELPS TO HAVE THE CLUTCH COVER OFF AND THE BELT OFF SO YOU CAN TURN WITH EITHER THE DRIVE CLUTCH OR THE CRANK NUT ON THE MAG SIDE AND MAKE SURE THE CAM CHAIN ADJUSTER IS OFF THE MACHINE.

Use a silver Sharpie or white grease pencil to put a reference mark on the crankcase above the recoil cover in line with the timing mark inside the hole. Then pull the recoil starter off the machine and clean the marks on the flywheel so you can see them. Use the Sharpie or grease pencil to highlight the T (TDC) mark which is actually upside down (like this l )when you look from the side of the machine....NOTE: DON'T BE CONFUSED BY ANY OTHER TIMING MARKS ON THE FLYWHEEL... there is often several.
Get the T mark to the correct position off your reference mark on the crankcase, pop the recoil back on to confirm and then make sure the cam lobes are pointing straight up in line with the top of the engine...NOT STRAIGHT UP VERTICALLY BUT STRAIGHT UP IN LINE WITH THE CYLINDER.
There should also be two lines marked on the cam sprocket that will be level horizontally with the opening in the head. You can also use a screwdriver or something similar to confirm the piston is at TDC. If its not all aligned pull the sprocket off and move it in the chain till its right then put back on so everything is aligned correctly.

Once you have it all aligned put EVERYTING back together (including the carb, air box, tank and all) back on and it should fire right up.
polman500 is offline  
post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 04:52 AM
Moderator
 
polman500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SE Kentucky
Posts: 7,570
Here's a couple of not very good videos but they'll give you a general idea of what you need to do.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...b&action=click

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...a0&action=view
polman500 is offline  
post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 05:03 AM
Moderator
 
polman500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SE Kentucky
Posts: 7,570
Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you once you have it all lined up, stick your finger in the tensioner hole to push the chain tight to double check. If you're satisfied all is good install the tensioner and crank or pull the machine through 4-5 revolutions and confirm all is still good before finishing assembly of everything else.
Also, when you are slowly rolling the machine over to TDC, you can actually FEEL it cross the top and confirm with the screwdriver through the plug hole.
You should also be aware that I've seen some that the T mark won't EXACTLY line up PERFECTLY because it won't set there without falling on over a little past the mark but if you are sure you're at TDC then that's it.
polman500 is offline  
post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
ATV Enthusiast
 
Jbeneicke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 30
I'll take a straight edge and scribe a mark on the case and try to line everything up and then turn over by hand. I have commitments tonight and tomorrow night so I probably won't be able to work on it until the weekend but I Really Really appreciate the help. I consider myself a pretty competent shade tree mechanic but this has me stumped.
Jbeneicke is offline  
post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 07:16 AM
Polaris ATV Legend
 
latebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,378
Sorry I haven't been of much help, but I am starting to lean towards no ignition as the cause of the problem. In time or not, with ether; if the valves were open when spark occurs, there should be ignition of the fuel and ether will burn very quickly even if there is no compression. You said you could see the ether coming out the exhaust as the engine cranked over - it's kinda risky, but I think I would test the vapor by positioning a flame (candle or similar) near the exhaust port, crank the engine using ether and see if the exhaust ignites - if it does, it confirms a burnable fuel in the combustion chamber and most likely the lack of spark. Have a fire extinguisher handy and try to not do this in an enclosed area. You decide what direction to take.

2006 Trailboss 330
2002 Sportsman 90
2005 TRX400EX (FOR SALE)
2003 LT-Z400 (needs engine work & is for sale)
2004 CRF250X
1971 Triumph 650 Bonneville (has 5 original miles)
1972 Triumph 650 Bonneville (undergoing restoration)
1979 Honda CBX (6 cylinder)
1970 Kawasaki G3SS 90cc Bushmaster
1976 Suzuki RE5 Rotary (not running & FOR SALE)
1981 Kawasaki KZ305-A
1981 Suzuki GS450T (undergoing repair & will be for sale when done)
1982 Kawasaki KZ750-H (FOR SALE)
1989 Honda VT1100C
2007 Vectrix VCTX Electric Scooter
1965 Montgomery Ward 3 1/2 HP Tecumseh Mini Bike
1970 Triumph T25 250cc Trailblazer
1968 Triumph 250cc Flat Tracker

Shop Owner and Mechanic with over 50 years experience
latebird is offline  
post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 08:06 AM
Moderator
 
polman500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SE Kentucky
Posts: 7,570
Quote:
Originally Posted by latebird View Post
Sorry I haven't been of much help, but I am starting to lean towards no ignition as the cause of the problem. In time or not, with ether; if the valves were open when spark occurs, there should be ignition of the fuel and ether will burn very quickly even if there is no compression. You said you could see the ether coming out the exhaust as the engine cranked over - it's kinda risky, but I think I would test the vapor by positioning a flame (candle or similar) near the exhaust port, crank the engine using ether and see if the exhaust ignites - if it does, it confirms a burnable fuel in the combustion chamber and most likely the lack of spark. Have a fire extinguisher handy and try to not do this in an enclosed area. You decide what direction to take.
LOL, that sounds like the recipe for an explosive device to me latebird.
I got pretty long winded before but it sounded like he was unsure of the timing and THINKS he has spark using a spark tester but just not getting it at the right time. I've never used a spark tester device so I don't know if they can lie to you or not?? I just figured if he holds the plug against the head (like I've always done since I was a kid many many moons ago) and gets a spark and then gets it all lined up in time and all back together its bound to run!!
polman500 is offline  
post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 08:35 AM
Polaris ATV Legend
 
latebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,378
@polman500
Quote:
I've never used a spark tester device so I don't know if they can lie to you or not?? I just figured if he holds the plug against the head (like I've always done since I was a kid many many moons ago) and gets a spark and then gets it all lined up in time and all back together its bound to run!!
Same here - I use an inductive timing light - if there is a spark at the plug, the light flashes - it senses current flow to trigger the timing light - spark=flash - but a fouled plug can let the spark travel along the porcelain to ground which means no spark across the terminals, but the light still flashes - so always use a new plug or two.

OP mentioned 'light bulb style tester' - do you know what that is? I presume he is going to look for voltage at the coil? There is no voltage at the coil until the moment the CDI discharges the capacitor through the coil. Typically about 100 volts, but only for a few milliseconds - has to be measured with a peak voltage meter or an oscilloscope.

If he follows my suggestion there is a slight risk he might incinerate it, but that would solve the problem too.

2006 Trailboss 330
2002 Sportsman 90
2005 TRX400EX (FOR SALE)
2003 LT-Z400 (needs engine work & is for sale)
2004 CRF250X
1971 Triumph 650 Bonneville (has 5 original miles)
1972 Triumph 650 Bonneville (undergoing restoration)
1979 Honda CBX (6 cylinder)
1970 Kawasaki G3SS 90cc Bushmaster
1976 Suzuki RE5 Rotary (not running & FOR SALE)
1981 Kawasaki KZ305-A
1981 Suzuki GS450T (undergoing repair & will be for sale when done)
1982 Kawasaki KZ750-H (FOR SALE)
1989 Honda VT1100C
2007 Vectrix VCTX Electric Scooter
1965 Montgomery Ward 3 1/2 HP Tecumseh Mini Bike
1970 Triumph T25 250cc Trailblazer
1968 Triumph 250cc Flat Tracker

Shop Owner and Mechanic with over 50 years experience
latebird is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Polaris ATV Forum > Polaris ATV Technical Discussions > ATV Repair and Maintenance

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Polaris ATV Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2002 Sportsman Fuel or Carb Issue thisdj1 ATV Repair and Maintenance 51 09-27-2017 08:34 AM
2006 Sportsman 500 Electrical Issue brokensportsman ATV Repair and Maintenance 0 07-18-2017 10:56 AM
2016 Polaris 570 Hard Starting and Stalling Issue. EricTA Polaris Sportsman 570 11 06-29-2017 06:04 PM
How many 12 850's have timing gear issue? jehar46 Polaris XP 10 09-20-2016 04:01 PM
Ranger 700 EFI Timing Issue greenegreen ATV Repair and Maintenance 0 05-24-2016 01:31 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome