08 outlaw 525 trouble starting - Page 2 - Polaris ATV Forum
Polaris Outlaw Discussions for the Polaris Outlaw 50,90,450, 525

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 01:47 PM
Extreme ATV Enthusiast
 
Tigman186's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: MN
Posts: 177
Garage
One thing to maybe check, is make sure the valves are opening when they should be. Be sure the timing chain hasn't skipped a tooth or anything, because if this is an interference motor, meaning the valves can contact the piston when at TDC if not timed right, that could be what you're feeling. It could be the valves coming in contact with the top of the piston, resulting in what feels like compression.
Tigman186 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 05:48 AM
Polaris ATV Legend
 
latebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,378
@Tigman186:
Quote:
One thing to maybe check, is make sure the valves are opening when they should be. Be sure the timing chain hasn't skipped a tooth or anything, because if this is an interference motor, meaning the valves can contact the piston when at TDC if not timed right, that could be what you're feeling. It could be the valves coming in contact with the top of the piston, resulting in what feels like compression.
How does a cam chain "skip a tooth" in the first place? If the chain is loose enough to skip a tooth, it has been making noise and running poorly for quite some time (unless it was being run under extreme conditions causing the automatic cam chain tensioner to fail in which case it would suffer catastrophic engine failure).

If the valve contacts the piston and you are turning the crankshaft over by hand, as soon as the valve contacts the piston it comes to a sudden stop.

It's easy enough to check the cam timing, but if it's off a tooth, then you are looking at major engine service without any further diagnosis. On most 'interference' engines if the cam timing is off by one tooth, the engine will still run, but performance suffers drastically. If the chain jumps a tooth, the valve timing becomes late in relation to the position of the piston. If the camshaft timing is retarded, the result is that high RPM breathing is improved, but an unstable idle, reduced power at low RPM and hard starting. As the cam chain wears it has the effect of getting 'longer' which results in the cam timing being retarded a few degrees. A cam chain is complete worn out when the timing is off by less than 1/2 tooth.

On twin overhead cam engines, the lift and duration is set by the 'grind', but the point at which the valve begins to open can be adjusted by slotting the cam sprocket bolt holes. Using a degree wheel attached to the crankshaft and a dial indicator on the valve, the opening of the valve can be adjusted to achieve better performance.

On single cam engines, the relation between the opening of the intake and exhaust valves is set by the cam manufacturer and the only variable available to the mechanic is setting the opening of the intake or exhaust valve. Depending on the design of the cam, the drive sprocket can be modified to allow minor adjustment for improvement of either low or high RPM performance, but not both.

The natural wear of a cam chain results in later valve opening, which results in unstable idle, reduced power at low RPM and harder starting.

2006 Trailboss 330
2002 Sportsman 90
2005 TRX400EX (FOR SALE)
2003 LT-Z400 (needs engine work & is for sale)
2004 CRF250X
1971 Triumph 650 Bonneville (has 5 original miles)
1972 Triumph 650 Bonneville (undergoing restoration)
1979 Honda CBX (6 cylinder)
1970 Kawasaki G3SS 90cc Bushmaster
1976 Suzuki RE5 Rotary (not running & FOR SALE)
1981 Kawasaki KZ305-A
1981 Suzuki GS450T (undergoing repair & will be for sale when done)
1982 Kawasaki KZ750-H (FOR SALE)
1989 Honda VT1100C
2007 Vectrix VCTX Electric Scooter
1965 Montgomery Ward 3 1/2 HP Tecumseh Mini Bike
1970 Triumph T25 250cc Trailblazer
1968 Triumph 250cc Flat Tracker

Shop Owner and Mechanic with over 50 years experience
latebird is offline  
post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 02:20 PM
Extreme ATV Enthusiast
 
Tigman186's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: MN
Posts: 177
Garage
@latebird

I think you answered your own question by trying to tear apart my response. Yes, a motor will run if the chain skipped a tooth, and yes, the chain would have to be very loose. But if I'm not mistaken, the OP said it would run, the starter just has a hard time spinning it over. As far as if a motor will come to a complete stop or not, depends 1) how large the cam lift is, and whether or mot thats far enough to contact the piston if the timing is off. 2) what angle the valves come into the head at can determine whether it will stop or not with a slight contact, because if its straight on, yes, it will stop because the force has nowhere to go, but if they're angled in relation to the piston, then that gives the valve a chance to bend, rather than just try to be compressed. I think you need to reconsider, or at the very least, re-read what I posted. I couldn't care less if you agree or not. Last I checked, this wasn't a pissing match, I believe we are here solely to give the OP some ideas as to what's wrong with their machine.
Tigman186 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 03:03 PM
Polaris ATV Legend
 
latebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,378
Tigman186
Quote:
I believe we are here solely to give the OP some ideas as to what's wrong with their machine.
And that's exactly what I did - if the valves are angled as they are in most OHV engines - when turning the engine by hand, any contact between the piston and the valve will be felt - if the valve just barely contacts the piston, the engine may run, but it won't run right, it will be noisy and if the valve contacts the piston by as little as .010", it will bend the valve stem, dropping compression and making the engine nearly impossible to start and a small amount of running will result in a broken valve and a destroyed cylinder head. If the cam chain skipped a tooth, the engine is due for a rebuild.

I replace the cam chain in my engines when the timing is off by 3 degrees - by the time the chain has worn to the point the timing is off by 5 degrees, the chain tensioner is usually at the limit of it's design to take up the slack. But, I am a mechanic and I perform maintenance that most vehicle owners ignore.

My CRF250 is rebuilt sometimes twice a year. It gets a new piston and rings after 30 hours of racing, a cam chain every two years and I keep a spare piston, cylinder, intake valves, cam chain and associated gaskets on hand.

One of my first suggestions to the OP was to check the valve clearance - generally overlooked until the engine will not start - the valves on modern engines lose their clearance and have to be loosened periodically. The general consensus is that the noise in the motor is the valves getting loose - wrong, the valves get tight unless there is something wearing that shouldn't - usually that noise turns out to be the cam chain telling the owner it's overdue for replacement.

You run your engines your way and I'll run mine my way - beyond that, motors are simple - if you you have adequate compression, spark, spark at the right time and fuel and air in the right ratio the engine will start and run.

Sometimes the owner just needs to take it to a qualified mechanic.

2006 Trailboss 330
2002 Sportsman 90
2005 TRX400EX (FOR SALE)
2003 LT-Z400 (needs engine work & is for sale)
2004 CRF250X
1971 Triumph 650 Bonneville (has 5 original miles)
1972 Triumph 650 Bonneville (undergoing restoration)
1979 Honda CBX (6 cylinder)
1970 Kawasaki G3SS 90cc Bushmaster
1976 Suzuki RE5 Rotary (not running & FOR SALE)
1981 Kawasaki KZ305-A
1981 Suzuki GS450T (undergoing repair & will be for sale when done)
1982 Kawasaki KZ750-H (FOR SALE)
1989 Honda VT1100C
2007 Vectrix VCTX Electric Scooter
1965 Montgomery Ward 3 1/2 HP Tecumseh Mini Bike
1970 Triumph T25 250cc Trailblazer
1968 Triumph 250cc Flat Tracker

Shop Owner and Mechanic with over 50 years experience
latebird is offline  
post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 08:56 AM
Junior Member
 
4est500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 4
Before you try buying anything, charge your battery past 13 volts I had the same issue on my Polaris. It would not start if the voltage was under 13 volts. Try that first. Once I charge my battery up, about fired up and did just fine
4est500 is offline  
post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-22-2019, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
ATV Enthusiast
 
blazz81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: ny
Posts: 52
Garage
I did try that first, ive already replaced battery but no luck,, the old battery is now in another atv and working better then ever.

ive also replaced starter and did some testing on page one. the next thing for me is the one way starter gear(KTM FreeWheel) or the decompressor.... or both...

When i try to start it i can see the back gears keep spining whille the others spin then start jurking. i think the freewheel is sliping witch at first sounded like a low battery or bad starter/conection or decompressor

i made a video ill try to post..

I got the freewheel today and a three arm puller.. im going to work on it this weekend.

if replacing the freewheel works then im going to test the engine compressing.. im worried that the decompressor has not been working right for a long time and stressed out the freewheel.

its been struggling to turn over for a long time... years.. back then... i figured im going to need to replace battery soon but it kept working. it always got worse in the winter but this winter i had to get a new battery (old bat working good in other atv) which is the start of my 1st post.

In the video you hear the loud whining... that's the new starter. the old one was not that load..
I cant get the video to work on this site.. but if you click on the short link on top of video it will take you to youtub.com with video


Last edited by blazz81; 03-22-2019 at 06:33 PM.
blazz81 is offline  
post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 06:25 AM
Polaris ATV Legend
 
latebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,378
Yep - it's definitely a bad starter clutch

Replace all three parts:
From Polaris
6230361 GEAR-PRIMARY 31T 525ATV 150.29
6230365 CLUTCH-1WAY STARTER 169.99
6230360 GEAR-FREEWHEEL,1WAY CLUTCH 103.79

From KTM
83032022031 PRIMARY GEAR 31T CPL. 147.85
58440026000 FREE-WHEEL (one way clutch) 99.90
59040020175 FREEWHEEL GEAR 101.84 101.84

To prevent future problems - follow KTM's oil recommendations

Engine oil (SAE 10W/50) or (SAE 5W/50) according to JASO T903 MA or JASO T903 MA

Use only engine oils that comply with the specified standards (see specifications on the container) and that possess the corresponding properties. KTM recommends Motorex Synthetic engine oil Motorex Power Synthetic 4T

External tem-perature: greater than 0 C (32 F) SAE 10W/50
External tem-perature: less than 0 C (32 F) SAE 5W/40

Recommended fuel - Super unleaded (ROZ 95 / RON 95 / PON 91)

Biggest cause of starter drive failure on wet clutch/wet starter drive engines is failure to change the engine oil frequently enough and use of non JASO rated oils.

2006 Trailboss 330
2002 Sportsman 90
2005 TRX400EX (FOR SALE)
2003 LT-Z400 (needs engine work & is for sale)
2004 CRF250X
1971 Triumph 650 Bonneville (has 5 original miles)
1972 Triumph 650 Bonneville (undergoing restoration)
1979 Honda CBX (6 cylinder)
1970 Kawasaki G3SS 90cc Bushmaster
1976 Suzuki RE5 Rotary (not running & FOR SALE)
1981 Kawasaki KZ305-A
1981 Suzuki GS450T (undergoing repair & will be for sale when done)
1982 Kawasaki KZ750-H (FOR SALE)
1989 Honda VT1100C
2007 Vectrix VCTX Electric Scooter
1965 Montgomery Ward 3 1/2 HP Tecumseh Mini Bike
1970 Triumph T25 250cc Trailblazer
1968 Triumph 250cc Flat Tracker

Shop Owner and Mechanic with over 50 years experience
latebird is offline  
post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
ATV Enthusiast
 
blazz81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: ny
Posts: 52
Garage
Installed new but for some reason it’s reversed and I can’t figure out why the one-way gear can only install in one direction I took it all back apart thinking maybe I put it in backwards but I didn’t..

So when I try to start it it just spins it’s not locking up in the direction that it should it’s locking up in the opposite direction..

What are the chances that I got One that was miss assembled ?

Last edited by blazz81; 03-23-2019 at 02:49 PM.
blazz81 is offline  
post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
ATV Enthusiast
 
blazz81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: ny
Posts: 52
Garage
I’m going to try to flip the guts in the opposite directions
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	5415902C-0A5B-4E84-A4A6-8721E7F7DFC6_1553368630970.jpeg
Views:	7
Size:	1.43 MB
ID:	116893  
blazz81 is offline  
post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
ATV Enthusiast
 
blazz81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: ny
Posts: 52
Garage
Fixed!!

I had to take the freewheel apart it was assembled backwards so it operated in reverse. had to pull off the spring and rollers and flip everything around.

But other than that it wasn't that hard to change Didn't even need to use the pullar or any special tools.

Thanks for the help
blazz81 is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Polaris ATV Forum > Polaris Model Specific Discussions > Polaris Outlaw

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Polaris ATV Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2004 scrambler 500 igention switch wiring diagram Dean Forester ATV Repair and Maintenance 4 09-19-2018 07:50 AM
98 Polaris sportsman 500 trouble starting robertf31 ATV General Discussion 7 07-18-2018 03:20 AM
Outlaw 525 power gains Zachpolaris525 ATV Performance Modifications 6 10-08-2017 07:29 PM
2007 Outlaw 525 IRS no start Mattsutter ATV General Discussion 5 08-30-2017 12:02 PM
Outlaw 525 starting problems POLARISOUTLAWRIDER ATV Repair and Maintenance 0 07-15-2017 01:02 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome