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Discussion Starter #21
It would be pretty easy to make a port through the top of the fuel pump assembly similar to the vent line. Then you could attach the vacuum line to it inside the tank and route the external portion to the headlight pod. You would have a free flow of air and no possibility of gas entering the vacuum port.
Or you could route a vacuum line from the port to the top of the tank and turn it back down all the way to the bottom. The only way fuel could enter it would be if the tank were completely full AND the machine was upside down; or you had a loose connection at the vacuum port.
 

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It would be pretty easy to make a port through the top of the fuel pump assembly similar to the vent line. Then you could attach the vacuum line to it inside the tank and route the external portion to the headlight pod. You would have a free flow of air and no possibility of gas entering the vacuum port.
Or you could route a vacuum line from the port to the top of the tank and turn it back down all the way to the bottom. The only way fuel could enter it would be if the tank were completely full AND the machine was upside down; or you had a loose connection at the vacuum port.
If it needs to be vented, this sounds like a viable solution.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Just got off the phone with the manufacturer's engineer. He says submersing it won't hurt it at all. He also said it should work in our application as long as the measurements are the same, which they are.

Stew
 

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Thank You

If this works you will be my hero - and a lot of others too! Thanx for taking the time, doing the research and thanx for sharing with the rest of us!
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Good news and bad news. The regulator came in and it fits in the housing perfectly but...

Trying to save a few bucks I ordered it off of eBay. It was advertised as a Standard PR210 and the guy ripped me off and sent me a Chinese knockoff. Now I'm haggling with the guy to reverse his no return policy and take it back.

It has the same size specifications but is very cheaply made. The sad part is it looks more like the OEM than the Standard brand, which tells me something about where Polaris's fuel pump assembly supplier gets their parts.

Anyhow, I'm afraid to use it because I have no idea if it meets the psi specs. I'm going to do what I should have done in the first place and get the one from NAPA that I've had eyes and hands on.

Stew
 

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To bad... I hate that bait and switch crap! Overall I have had excellent results and the couple times I did find these things happening I was able to get resolution thru Pay-pal/EBay.

CW
 

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Sorry you taken like that - I hate it when they advertise one thing and send you something else - E-Bay can help you out though - it is against their policy.

I stopped at the local parts store here on my way home last night and was going to pick one up (Borg Warner part # is actually 23020 - you have a type O earlier in the thread) but decided I would wait a couple of days to see what sucess you had and they had to order it in for the next day. Cost was like $62.00 plus tax so if it does work I will go get one.

Let us know how it goes!
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
More good news and bad news

Well,
GOOD NEWS:
The 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee V-8 fuel pressure regulator (NAPA 219679) fits to a tee and works like a charm. I turned the key on and let the pump pressurize the system to prime it about 6 times, then the machine fired right up like it was never dismantled and idled at about 1180 rpms...no change there. I can't confirm the fuel pressure was at 39 psi because my fuel pressure tester is on order and won't be here until next week some time.

I let it idle for about 30 minutes to let the machine get good and warm. The fan cycled on-off about 6-8 times. I can't do a real ride because it's already dark and I have to trailer about 35 miles to get to a decent riding area.

While it was running, I did a stator AC voltage output check on each of the three phases at 1300, 3000, and 5000 rpms respectively. It was right on with the specs in the manual.

BAD NEWS:
The regulator didn't fix my problem.

The problems I was having on the trail would show up in one of two ways:

1) It would slowly die and peter out while driving at any speed
2) After stopping and shutting down for a few minutes, It would start up and get to about 1000-1100 rpms and slowly peter out again.

Tonight, I turned it off after the 30-minute idle and let it sit for about 5 minutes while I tidied up the garage. When I started it up again it got a little over 1000 rpms and petered out.

I tried to start it again 3 times without success. Then I remembered I read somewhere that a guy with a similar problems poured cool fuel into the tank, it started right up and he drove away.

I only had about a quarter tank so I tried filling it up with cool fuel and it worked. Fired right up as if nothing happened.

Could it be the fuel pump overheating?

My pump is only three months old and its rated output is about 70 gallons per hour. The machine's fuel system only requires about 8 gallons per hour. What gives?

Could it be the voltage regulator? The ignition coil? The ECU?

I am completely stumped and getting a little discouraged. I've been fighting with this all summer and I'm tired of getting towed back to the truck...especially by a Honda. :)

Stew
 

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You need to hook up your fuel pressure gauge and repeat the sequence of events from yesterday (extended idle), Also, as mentioned in a separate thread do the same with a voltmeter (or inductive amp meter) hooked to the battery to monitor battery voltage, (charging amperage). This would give some indication of what the regulator/charging system is doing during an episode.

Check again to make sure your tank vent line is not pinched, if you haven't already.
Make sure your kill switch is not somehow intermittently killing the engine.

Coils, when they fail produce a weak spark, often from heat soak. (unless they totally fail - no spark at all) The hotter they get the weaker the spark. But this does not explain the sudden change when you added cooler fresh gas. A pinched vent line would, as you removed the gas cap. Crack open the cap next time it starts to die. IF the pump is failing when hot, your pressure gauge should show reduced pressure, shouldn't it?. You already added a heat shield to bottom of tank. It is not unheard of to get faulty new parts (fuel pump). Really need to hook up that gauge.

I have also seen similar symptoms on a 1979 ford pickup. Out of the blue, it would quit as you describe. Pouring a cup or two of ice water over the spark control box on the inner fender would restore things to new until next time.

You have replaced most everything else........
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
My battery was at 14.23 volts at idle and 14.25 at 5000 rpms... before the episode. I didn't think to check it during.

What's a good way to check the kill switch?

After I check that, I think I need to chase down why the machine fired right up like normal just 5 minutes after I poured cool fuel into the tank. I think it's more than coincidence. That makes me think the problem is with the pump itself, and not some elusive electrical or voltage problem somewhere else on the machine. If the pump were overheating that could easily cause it to underperform.

Under normal circumstances, the pump shouldn't overheat should it? What I mean is shouldn't the pump be designed to be able to operate normally until the tank is empty? :nixweiss:

What the heck can you do about an overheating pump? I've already covered the bottom of the tank with insulating foil. I even wrapped the fuel lines with insulating foil on the parts where they were exposed to the exhaust pipe. Now they look just like the breather hose from the valve cover to the air box.

I could keep enough fuel in the tank to keep the pump submerged but that doesn't really fix the problem; and it really cuts into the usable range of the machine if I can't go below a half-tank.

I guess I need to get a pressure gauge on it and then try to duplicate the problem again. I know, :duh: My pressure tester is coming next week.

Stew
 

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Wow Stu, you really have been around the bend with this problem. I have really learned a lot about Polaris from all of your work and patients. Thanks so much for posting all of this!

Yours,
Virginia Jake
 

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My problem is very similar in that after riding for a certain amount of time (as little as 20 mins in this 100 degree Texas heat up to 2+ hours in the cool of the night) and the machine would starve for fuel and die. The longer I waited to re-start it the longer it would run - If only waited 2 mins. it would start and run for about 30 seconds and die again - if left it in the field to cool off and came back an hour or two later it would start and run fine it until it heated up again. All of this made sense with theory that when fuel in the tank heated up the regulator "popped off" or stuck open and just recycled fuel inside the tank.

I was able to verify that is was not spark related and then turned to fuel issues. I do not have a shrader valve on my fuel rail so I have no way to check PSI but could verify that fuel was not under pressure in the line when removed.

biggest problem in the whole mess was you had do things quick - the longer it took me check things - the longer it had time to cool off and thus would no longer act up.

I picked up the new fuel pressure regulator (Borg Warner #23020 for O'Reiley - cost $71.00) and will install it tonight and see what happens. I will report my findings after that.

Thanks to Stew for getting us this far!
by the way Stew - my factory regulator is open (or should I say it has a hole)on the backside where the new one has the vacuum connector ???
 

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Discussion Starter #33
by the way Stew - my factory regulator is open (or should I say it has a hole)on the backside where the new one has the vacuum connector ???
Check out the pictures in post #14 above. If you stuck a vacuum reference port on the OEM regulator and hooked nothing up to it, it would still work the same. I verified this with the engineer at Standard Motor Products, who makes this particular replacement regulator for most of the other brands. The port just wasn't needed for the in-tank aplication on our ATVs.

Stew
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Wow Stu, you really have been around the bend with this problem. I have really learned a lot about Polaris from all of your work and patients. Thanks so much for posting all of this!

Yours,
Virginia Jake
You're welcome, Jake. Thanks for the kind words and I'm really glad this is helping people.
Stew
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I'm experiencing close the same problems about the sputtering and rough running. Feel like pulling my hair out. I have no CE light, replaced the coil, plugs, wires, battery, checked TPS wiring (ok, no breaks), checked TBAP wiring (ok, no breaks) and am not sure what else to do. Machine starts right up, but runs like the choke is left on (but its an EFI) and will continue running only if you are on the throttle. Grrr.

AKStew, did you have any Check Engine lights throughout any of this?
TJ,
Sorry, I completely missed your question. No I didn't have check engine lights except I did get a code 41 & 45 for the t-bap sensor. Only one time though.

Stew
 

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Discussion Starter #36
It's been suggested in another forum I'm posting in that it would be a good idea to find out with an infrared thermometer just how hot the bottom of the tank is getting when the machine dies. I think I will.

He also suggested an aluminum plate between the engine and the tank with an air gap between it and the tank, with an insulating material on top of the plate would probably do the best job of insulating the tank from the exhaust heat. This sounds like a good idea if heat is determined to be an issue, which I think it is.

Finally, he suggested having the manifold and the pipe that connects to it ceramic coated.

Thoughts anyone?

Stew
 

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Do you have any insulation on the tank now?

To me, the heat shield you speak of may hold more heat. Only a trial period would tell.

As far as the ceramic coating, VERY EXPENSIVE!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
racer, there's plenty of insulation on the tank right now. You may be right about the shield. I have to think that one through some more. Like you said, ceramic coating is expensive and I really don't want to go that route. The guy that suggested it lives in Louisiana and swears by it though.

Stew
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Update...

Tonight I duplicated what I did last night. 1/4 tank of gas, idled for 30 minutes, cut it off, restarted and it ran for a couple seconds and petered out.

I had the voltmeter hooked up to the battery, and the voltage when it died it was 14.26. It jumped around a bit but AFTER the engine started to lose rpms. I don't think it's a battery problem.

Then I got my automotive stethoscope out and listened to the fuel pump on subsequent restart attempts. I placed it against the ground wire terminal on top of the fuel pump assembly since that is on top of the mounting post for the fuel pump. My sequence was: Turn key on, wait 2 seconds for priming, turn key to start, sputter a little and die.

Here's how the fuel pump sounded through the stethoscope during the priming sequences. It would begin pumping and immediately go down in pitch as if it were creating pressure. Then it would sound as if something let go and act like it was free-spinning until it turned off, after which it would stop slowly instead of cutting off sharply. I must have listened to it about 30 times and every time was the same. I also had the voltmeter hooked up to the power supply for the pump. It would show about 13v while the pump primed and go down to 5v when priming was done. That's normal.

On a failed start, the pump would attempt to spool up and pump for a second or two but then it would just begin to sound as if it were free-spinning and the engine would sputter and die. Another 30 or so tries confirmed this. Voltage was still good.

Here's what really chaps my cheeks:
After all the testing I could think of was done, I filled it up with cool gas and the machine started up like nothing ever happened.

Is it the cool gas or having the gas above a certain level that makes a difference? :nixweiss:

I siphoned the gas back out of the tank and couldn't get it to fail again after another hour of idling. BTW doesn't the owner's manual not to let it idle for extended periods?

I did listen to the pump on successful restarts. On the priming sequence, it would create a rock steady tone for 2 seconds and cut off sharply. When I would start it, it would begin to pump the same way as before then spool up to what I assume is its operating speed and stay there until I turned it off.

In sync with that was the voltage to the pump. During startup it would begin at 11.9 and quickly move up to 13.23 and stay there forever on end.

Voltage acted the same no matter what was going on. The difference was the sound of the pump both during the priming and startup sequences.

I can't explain why...anyone else care to try?

I really, REALLY need my fuel pressure tester to get here.

Thanks,
Stew
 

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Stew,
It sounds to me like your correct. The pump sounds correct to me. It primes the system and shuts down. I'm as you, thinking the heat is shutting down the flow. Either by heat or something simple like a bent hose then pinches off as the hose itself heats and becomes pliable. In any event I feel this is directly associated with heat.

I like the idea of the laser hear test gun. I would also like to see is a remote fuel tank would make a difference... Just to rule that part out. I'm betting with it, it would run like a rapped ape...

CW
 
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