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Discussion Starter #61
Yawnnnn
 

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So why is it so "funny" and "look down my nose" worthy to think mathmatically/mechanically overriding by varying tire size would indeed trick "the system" into thinking the rear tires are spinning so it engages the front differential?

I don't have a manual handy for real life front/rear diff gearing to figure out variance, but I've never hear of them being identical front/rear since that would override the wheel speed differential that allows the hillard to function.
THat's exactly what Camoplast does with the Tatou 4s track system. They change the sproket size, front and rear, to ge tthe AWD results they are looking for.
 

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:bsflag:
You know considering this was my thread and my question if you guys just want to argue why don't you open a new thread. Since neither of you has proof of what you are saying (and Im not saying either of you is wrong), then it doesn't really answer my question it just takes the thread way off course.
How many correct answers on page one do ya need?
Alot of the factory rubber listed as 26" actually measure 24.5"
Most aftermarket tires listed as 26" will measure at least 27"

You just introduced an additional 2.5" of rollout to the rear which when in awd will say hey, back tires are slipping because they're traveling further than the stock front rubber, so awd would be engaged full time. Not a issue on dirt and slippery surfaces to allow front tire slip but places with bite it'd be harder to steer.


Page one Uncledaddy Quote:
Alot of the factory rubber listed as 26" actually measure 24.5"
Most aftermarket tires listed as 26" will measure at least 27"

You just introduced an additional 2.5" of rollout to the rear which when in awd will say hey, back tires are slipping because they're traveling further than the stock front rubber, so awd would be engaged full time. Not a issue on dirt and slippery surfaces to allow front tire slip but places with bite it'd be harder to steer.


Complete BS
 

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Well hell Vandal, according to you
Polaris lies about how the Hillard works in their machine
I'm full of shit because I say it's possible to mechanically trick the built in overrun of the hillard by running smaller rear tires to increase driveline speed
And now your saying Camoplat lies and don't know what they're doing by installing different sized drive sprockets front/rear to attain a mechanically induced overrun to engage full time awd

I think you need to substitute that BS flag for a white flag and accept when to throw in the towel vs being completely wrong and continue to carry on like a child throwing a tantrum. It's funny and sad at the same time for a retired man in his 60's to carry on this way, but I'm still on the funny side of it and axiously awaiting your next response :)
 

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So why is it so "funny" and "look down my nose" worthy to think mathmatically/mechanically overriding by varying tire size would indeed trick "the system" into thinking the rear tires are spinning so it engages the front differential?

I don't have a manual handy for real life front/rear diff gearing to figure out variance, but I've never hear of them being identical front/rear since that would override the wheel speed differential that allows the hillard to function.
THat's exactly what Camoplast does with the Tatou 4s track system. They change the sproket size, front and rear, to ge tthe AWD results they are looking for.
Phil since you have tracks and are familiar with them, I'm going to ask 1 simple question that should basically back up what I've thought all along. Do they gear the front tracks with a smaller tooth count count to slow the rotation so the higher tooth count rear sprocket speed up and engages the awd.full time or as close to full time as possible? It is basically the same as installing smaller rear tires than front tires to speed up driveline rpm to overrun front and engage the rollers?

And I'm by no means saying running my front big horns that measure 27" diameter and stock rubber I hope to get this week sometime that measures 24.5" if they end up like my oe tires were is the magic Combo, it's just what I'm limited to for ease of access to try it; obviously would have to do the math like camoplast did to find a 2 varying size combo that would be as close as possible, but right now it's too late to figure that out since I'm fixing to hit the rack.
 

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I know who Uncledaddy is. But I'm not telling :shhh:. Glad to see your back brother :top:!
 

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Discussion Starter #67
come on guys for a question that as one has pointed out was answered on the first page we are at 65 posts. We can do it we can get to 100, don't give up now.
 

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Now's its a party things are just getting started. But really it's just a couple of bulls giving each other the horn. No one is going for the jugular. Anyway when these discussions get a little heat to them good info is a by product. Each camp trying to prove their theory/logic and we all learn a little and sometimes a lot. Atleast I have learned a couple of things about the Polaris AWD system. So lets get some vids up to prove some of those theories!
 

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Well hell Vandal, according to you
Polaris lies about how the Hillard works in their machine
I'm full of shit because I say it's possible to mechanically trick the built in overrun of the hillard by running smaller rear tires to increase driveline speed
And now your saying Camoplat lies and don't know what they're doing by installing different sized drive sprockets front/rear to attain a mechanically induced overrun to engage full time awd

I think you need to substitute that BS flag for a white flag and accept when to throw in the towel vs being completely wrong and continue to carry on like a child throwing a tantrum. It's funny and sad at the same time for a retired man in his 60's to carry on this way, but I'm still on the funny side of it and axiously awaiting your next response :)
Uncledaddy....I have called no one a liar and never said you were full of shit. You make a claim and I've told you my OPINION and nothing else. If you believe what you say you can do then DO IT and quit talking about it. Quit with the smokescreens and MAKE IT HAPPEN. We are all waiting for this game changing experiment of yours that you claim will work for pages and pages and the only thing that you have done so far is move your lips. You are the one claiming something.....so PROVE IT. The longer you put that small item off the less and less you credibility becomes. I told you in an earlier post I saw merit in your claim but who knows how much size difference in the two sets of tires it would take to TRICK as you say the hilliard. That is the key, and if it takes say 25 inch rears and 30 inch fronts no one is going to run a combination like that, and the bind when hitting dry ground would indeed probably do damage So when are you going to show us how this works?????
 

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I'm in a holding pattern, I am waiting for the set of oem wheels tires from a guy I work with before I can do anything, so nothing I can do right this second, but as I have always done and do in my life, I will see that it happens but when aspects r out of my control, they're out of my control so I wait.

I do agree, if it required a 30/25 time combo it'd be ridiculous, I'm just saying it's possible and if a 27/24.5 combo reduces lock up lag and gives a more predictable handeling aspect, that's all I'm saying. I've said all along you can trick the hillard, 6ouve said you can't and told me "that's not how it works" and even after posting old/new service manual literature by polaris you continued to say it won't work. Camoplast says it will, I say it will and can, the difference is I'm willing to check it out, and maybe fail, but I'll try because failure is just a stepping stone, so don't be so afraid of it. Better to have tried and lost vs never trying at all and living in a bubble.
 

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I'm in a holding pattern, I am waiting for the set of oem wheels tires from a guy I work with before I can do anything, so nothing I can do right this second, but as I have always done and do in my life, I will see that it happens but when aspects r out of my control, they're out of my control so I wait.

I do agree, if it required a 30/25 time combo it'd be ridiculous, I'm just saying it's possible and if a 27/24.5 combo reduces lock up lag and gives a more predictable handeling aspect, that's all I'm saying. I've said all along you can trick the hillard, 6ouve said you can't and told me "that's not how it works" and even after posting old/new service manual literature by polaris you continued to say it won't work. Camoplast says it will, I say it will and can, the difference is I'm willing to check it out, and maybe fail, but I'll try because failure is just a stepping stone, so don't be so afraid of it. Better to have tried and lost vs never trying at all and living in a bubble.
Believe me Uncledaddy....if it was my idea and I posted it here it would be proven or disproven. I have made some statements here that were wrong and you have also. My main concern is as the hilliard works, when the rear wheels slip, the driveshaft speed speeds up as you have said and that allows the ramp up in the hilliard for engagement. Why I am so skeptical is I don't think just by having a faster driveshaft speed, that alone will make the hilliard engage, since now after the rears gain traction the hilliard disengages. Your theory is that the faster driveshaft speed should keep the hilliard engaged, but we all know the hilliard at high speeds or high driveshaft speeds is still disengaging if the rears arent spinning. I have a feeling it happens by the sudden burst of driveshaft speed that occurs when the rear tires break loose, and just by changing tires to speed up the driveshaft constantly, will not result in full time AWD. I may be wrong but those are my thoughts, and that is the reason for my comments to you. I truly hope you can make it work with a reasonable difference in tire sizes. I await your testing...Good Luck
 

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That's a great flip side argument/hypothesis and just hope doing the tire swaparoo will yield some sort of definative answer vs nothing changed. I think it would prove very useful information no matter which way it goes for future reference unless somebody has a direct line with polaris engineering and can get an answer that has probably been ran 20 ways to Sunday already for them to market the system they did.

But playing devils advicate, the slight difference we share, I don't expect it to lock up and stay locked up, I just want it to lock up faster that my current "old non close ratio" does now. When plowing like I did for 6hrs today, every stand still take off I can feel rears spin a bit/dig down through snow and then a clunk as front diff engages. Later this afternoon I stripped down to bare quad for blast through the neighborhood to local timber for a quick trail blast. Going down the hard pack streets I got the same rear end wanting to come around as usual, not 360*/doughnut bad, but bad enough I naturally was prepared to counter steer or just gassed it harder to help try and straighten things out. In the woods, same story as always, speeds 5-15mph in low gear, awd switch on, tight turns, sometimes it would pull itself through turn, other times front kept going straight, sections where I could goose it to rengage front diff, it'd clunk and then pull itself back onto line I was shooting for to begin with, other times I had to stop and reverse or risk going head long into a tree at apex of outside corner I was trying to make.

Even keeping driveline rpm up out back, thinking I could find the exact tire combo with the varying lug height/design to force a full time awd would be lucky, but if I can drastically cut down the engagment time to mimic a almost full time awd when i want it and also make a less squirrely machine on hard pack roads/ice, then I will, for my sake/purpose call it mission achomplished. But so long as rear wheels/driveline speed is kept up, it should by all rights keep enough pressure on the hillard to stay engaged, and not overrun it, match it, and immediately disengage, it has to have as much reduction in driveline speed to disengage as it needs to engage...is what I'm thinking.
 

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Now this time your explanation sounds more logical to me. Basically you're not trying to trick the hilliard but just give it what it needs, in a different way, for quicker engagement and not full time AWD. I can get on board with that idea and for sure hope it works out for you. Like I said in the past the only worry I would have is the possible bind up issue, which I and you are in agreement on when it comes to dry hard pack ground or pavement, but that remains to be seen as to how much and how severe the binding might be. Let me know how this all works out. I could care less about proving my theory or disproving yours, and actually believe the answer may be somewhere right in the middle of both theorys. This discussion has been fun and hopefully helpful. Never anything personal, but just a disagreement in ideas. My best wishes to you and your idea....Vandal
 

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Now's its a party things are just getting started. But really it's just a couple of bulls giving each other the horn. No one is going for the jugular. Anyway when these discussions get a little heat to them good info is a by product. Each camp trying to prove their theory/logic and we all learn a little and sometimes a lot. Atleast I have learned a couple of things about the Polaris AWD system. So lets get some vids up to prove some of those theories!
That's usually how epic thread status on forums go.
1. Questions asked
2. Question answered
3. Expression of opinion, expansions of ideas
Leads to
4. Big debates, that can become heated
5. Usually ALOT of relevant info leaks thru the cracks as well as some eureka moments
6. Then it's just luck of the draw if the parted/spilt group discussion ends up coming back together towards the end....such as this one did.

So always lots of BS in the middle but usually it's never all for nothing :)

Texted my buddy this a.m. about getting the wheels & tires but with this big dump of snow he was out plowing all day like I was and now wants to go snow riding, and I don't blame him. It will eventually happen, sooner than later I hope, but it will get video'd in a way to cover as many bases as possible and posted for future reference so we don't ever have to go thru this again, any of us can simply post a link and get on with life lol:)
 

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Agreed Uncledaddy, its just a guy thing as to who is right but if the participants are smart, logical, and mature enough there is knowledge to be gained. I think that's one of the major reasons we are on the forum, to gain knowledge.

Now I'm gonna have to try and replicate the scenarios to which create this fish tailing or ass end whip that some members are explaining. But like I have stated I do not recall ever experiencing this out of control reaction from my machine. Although I'm fallowing the conclusions being made about the AWD system I have my reservations about its roll in creating the fish tail effect. I'm under the belief it is more the EBS and/or ADC causing it. My bike has neither system. My machine does have the back shift were as the tranny stays engaged for a period of time when I'm off the throttle and this does create some drag but like I have said never enough to get me out of control on the ice and snow. Also this has been mentioned by, if I recall correctly sportsman xp riders so maybe it's ADC because to my knowledge the other lines scrammy n vl don't have ADC.?.? Just wanted to add even though I think it's less the AWD I do understand when the guys say if the front was to stay engaged the fish tail effect would be minimized by having the front locked up instead of dropping back into 2 wheel drive.
 

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With mine the tail wanting to come around is as easy to replicate as riding down our neighborhood streets after the plow driver is done, nice thin layer of hard pack. Maintain a constant 15-20mph and really pay attention to what your butt is feeling since you will notice it there first and then probably notice you reactively begin to slightly counter steer. Mine does it in 2wd or 4wd on selector switch. The single lane twisty wooded trail are when the front diff lock/unlock really shows its ugly face and sometimes you can goose it to lock and pull yourself around, other times you end up having to stop and or reverse to get back on trail because it pushes straight ahead. Would be willing to bet during slick conditions like winter most guys just chalk it upto "musta hit a slick spot". But mine does it consistantly enough I know it's because the gearing difference and rears spinning more revolutions than the fronts so it's just a common sense fact the back will try to pass the front because the rear tires are traveling a further distance than the front tires are, the rear tires are sprinters, the front tires are joggers due to gearing "in a sense"

I've only used the adc portion of the switch maybe 10 times since I bought this just because I quickly learned it is not the selector you want to use desending any hill with loose material, locks the rears up so you have to goose it to regain control, made even worse on steep downhill decents that are off camber since rear end will lock up and naturally slide towards the downhill sloped portion of said trail, not good when there's a washout 12" deep in center or low center and your trying to hold a high line to avoid it so you don't barrel roll down the hill.
 

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With mine the tail wanting to come around is as easy to replicate as riding down our neighborhood streets after the plow driver is done, nice thin layer of hard pack. Maintain a constant 15-20mph and really pay attention to what your butt is feeling since you will notice it there first and then probably notice you reactively begin to slightly counter steer. Mine does it in 2wd or 4wd on selector switch. The single lane twisty wooded trail are when the front diff lock/unlock really shows its ugly face and sometimes you can goose it to lock and pull yourself around, other times you end up having to stop and or reverse to get back on trail because it pushes straight ahead. Would be willing to bet during slick conditions like winter most guys just chalk it upto "musta hit a slick spot". But mine does it consistantly enough I know it's because the gearing difference and rears spinning more revolutions than the fronts so it's just a common sense fact the back will try to pass the front because the rear tires are traveling a further distance than the front tires are, the rear tires are sprinters, the front tires are joggers due to gearing "in a sense"

I've only used the adc portion of the switch maybe 10 times since I bought this just because I quickly learned it is not the selector you want to use desending any hill with loose material, locks the rears up so you have to goose it to regain control, made even worse on steep downhill decents that are off camber since rear end will lock up and naturally slide towards the downhill sloped portion of said trail, not good when there's a washout 12" deep in center or low center and your trying to hold a high line to avoid it so you don't barrel roll down the hill.
Uncledaddy which machine are you riding? It must be an XP but the statement you made about the ADC makes no sense. The sliding and the goosing are usually reserved for EBS machines because EBS will make the back end very slidy and loose on slick surfaces. ADC is what basically gives you EBS on the front wheels, and I've never heard of anyone describing the rear end sliding when it is engaged. I really don't think it has anything to do with the rear end....but makes the front end like the rear end on a regular EBS machine so you have 4 wheel EBS basically. Someone with ADC chime in here and give your opinion or fact
 

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Thing acts like it has helium in the front tires even with back springs preloaded and fronts almost full looose. But that's old old news that's been beaten to death on here already.:laugh2:
 
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